51 comments on “What Did He Say?

  1. You know, I haven’t watched the episode, nor do I think he is being offensive on purpose, as it’s just his thoughts, but it reminds me of how I feel sometimes, writing about raiding when the real hard core raiders who kill stuff in the first week while I write about my struggles, my mishaps and how happy I was to kill it after it had been nerfed.

    People like Keelhaul, and Ironyca are like the elite, the top dogs in transmog. Seeing it in real life with an environment, moving around and animated, is going to be lots better than seeing a Mogit or model viewer picture, obviously. Maybe he was trying to say that. But sometimes I do wonder what people like Keelhaul who are costume kings and very very passionate about transmog and fashion, think about the littler people who just are talking about transmog and inside thinking “there is no way they could know more than me”. And I get that, I understand, they are top of the game, and we’re kinda below them. I’m not trying to make him sound like an asshat, because I think he’s really cool with all his mog stuff and how he makes money from gear on the AH and everything. I’m just trying to say it’d be like someone like… Celine Dion, commenting on my attempts to sing.

    But that doesn’t mean we can’t be enthusiasts. We are allowed to enjoy our little corner of the blogosphere. I wish that he hadn’t said those things, but he is entitled to his opinion. I mean, how else could he say what he wanted to say, right? He could have said it in a really mean way, but he didn’t. But Mog madness was fun, and all us silly people in this quiet corner of the blogosphere had fun with it, so I wouldn’t worry – all your friends thought it was great :)

    • But Navi — they may be the ‘transmog kings,’ but they still only have access to the same stuff as everyone else. They don’t have access to the “Sword of A Thousand Truths” (oh my God I crack myself up.)

    • “People like Keelhaul, and Ironyca are like the elite, the top dogs in transmog.”

      I don’t see it this way, I don’t want to be considered elite and I’m not sure what my merits are that others, fx those doing Mog Madness, don’t have. We might know a lot of armor, but for one, I don’t think my own character outfits that I run around in are that awesome.

      What I see at the events far surpasses what I’ve done with my own characters.
      Would I be able to win a WoW Factor competition myself?
      – No! :D

      The merit I have achieved can be ascribed to having done a number of visits to various servers, so I have seen a wide sample of mogging outfits, you start to see some patterns, but anyone watching the streams would see the same.
      We actually have a few loyal followers who show up every week and they could probably replace me in an instant. So could many of the people commenting here, I’m sure.

      So Navimie, I thank you for your flattering comment, but at the same time, I hope that’s not how people see it :)

  2. Ok, I’ve been so busy over the last few days with my blog migration that I feel out of the loop now with blogging news.

    I was curious to hear what was said in the context of the stream so I went ahead and listened to the relevant 2min discussion about our contest. I really didn’t see much discussion on twitter about this contest except for the tweets/RTs from contestants about publishing their entries.

    While I agree with the others who have said that there isn’t much comparison with being able to see your pixilated character move on a screen in the game environment in whatever mog outfit you choose, there’s a lot of be said about using your imagination of how a set would have looked in the game for the whole package. In many cases the outfits were so strong I felt you really didn’t need a set environment to sell the idea. Of course if you had one it may have been detrimental too – the background you chose could have had a negative impact on the entry. Like saying what does this background have to do with this outfit/class?

    For one, a lot of us didn’t have that luxury. I didn’t even realise that we had rounds that would be class/item/armour specific. I only play my priest so already I’m limited to cloth pieces. Yes, we had two weeks to complete the first round so a lot of shots in the beginning were game shots which was great. But by round two each round was only half as long which meant we only had literally a few days to get our outfits together. I actually did try to farm the polearm on my hunter that week but with limitations with raid and heroic dungeon lockouts we had to use what means we had.

    Another thing was I looked at the pieces I used in my outfits which were items I already owned or could still get in the game for that class. I tried to make it as realistic as possible for said hunter or paladin to be able to get all the pieces over time.

    I agree that Ironyca did try to explain fairly reasonably the concept of the contest. I’m not sure Keelhaul‘s opinion has really changed on the matter, even though he saw her point. But for what it’s worth, I’m really glad I was a part of it – although, I’m glad it’s over (only because it took a lot out of me towards the end LOL)

  3. If it was just a competition without multiple rounds and without set pieces to be worked in, fair enough, then I think asking people over say a 3-4 week window to produce their best ever outfit in-game is fine, but that wasn’t the point of Mog Madness or at least as I saw it.

    I liked the challenges of trying to work set pieces into an outfit and I loved the fact that despite us all starting out with one core piece, everyone came up with something very different. To me it’s a bit like translation, you ask two translators to translate a poem in say Ancient Greek and you’ll often end up with two completely different poems and that appeals to me.

    My server never has transmogrification competitions, the best I get is when people tell me my Gnome is “adorable” or “creepy like a china doll” in SW. Thus, I enjoy on-line ones.

    I’d love to have each item I want already farmed and ready to go but rng hates me (as witnessed by my attempts to get certain things for my hunter) and time certainly isn’t on my side either it just wouldn’t have been possible.

    I didn’t notice that many comments on twitter, perhaps people re-tweeting other’s entries but nothing extreme at least in my feed and I think I’m following/followed by most of the people who participated.

    Also imitation and flattery and all that?

    http://deazeroth.forumotion.com/t57-the-first-ever-weekly-monday-mog-madness

    • Yeah, he touched on that briefly in the comment as well, but I hadn’t seen it until now. It is rather flattering. Again, it still manages to be a bit different and that’s cool.

  4. Hmmm, what to say. I know, I will be honest :D

    Keelhaul’s ‘contests’ are currently just US-based, yes? That pretty much counts me right out, and an awful lot of the Warcraft player base.

    I’m not sure I’d want to be the person who started up the EU versions of these ‘events’ either, before anyone asks… ^^

    Mog Madness’ overriding benefits were two fold: you could compete regardless of geographic location, and you didn’t need to farm to do so.

    Using Mog It as a template is fabulous for those of us with lives outside the game and no time to obsessively collect items. I would not have been able to compete in this contest without its existance, pure and simple, and I’d like to think that a competition that revolves around pixels in a virtual setting would give a chance for anyone to enter, and level the playing field rather than give an advantage to the person able to ‘farm’ everything they needed.

    It seems to me that comparing apples to oranges is never a good idea. I’d also like to think that both contests are equally valid, regardless of the methods that are used to ‘gather’ the costumes.

    I look forward to the next Mog Madness contest, and will encourage people I know in Europe and beyond to enter :D

  5. @ Navimie I don’t think he was trying to be offensive either. Even after sleeping on it and listening again I still just don’t see the point. You are absolutely correct on their status in the Transmog Community, and I would’ve loved to have had either of them come comment on the contest while it was running. I often wondered if either had seen it and what they thought.

    @ Cymre/Erinys As with other folks, you summed it up very well.

    @ The Godmother Apples to oranges really is the most simplistic (and accurate) way of looking way it.

    • I have been watching Mog Madness from the beginning, but I’ve not had time to really get involved, I did compliment one of Kamalia’s outfit-posts, but that was as far as commenting went. I haven’t had time to update my own blog either.

      I thought about entering myself, but was fearful that some might find it too promotional or otherwise unsuitable, cause it would be hard for me to not mention WoWRoleplayGear or WoW Factor, so I’ve decided to not enter any competitions to avoid conflict and because I estimated that it was likely that my time would run short anyways.

      What I liked the most from your competition was when people had to emulate an “Anti-Paladin of the Old God.”.

      • Thanks for the kind words regarding the competition and rest assured you would have been welcomed with open arms.

        I understand your thoughts on how you may have been perceived and were that I were in your shoes I would no doubt have the same concerns. Still, the other bloggers who took part posted the outfits on their sites and linked to them and thus promoted their sites indirectly so you would’ve been cast in the same light in my eyes.

  6. Wow, I go to sleep and get up and I’m ten steps behind. I’ll have to listen. Godmother said what I would have said. Apples to oranges.

    I did tweet each week, hopefully not excessively, but I’m small potatoes as far as followers so doubt they went far.

    And it does remind me of what Navi said in her comment. I attended a WoW Factor Event and it was just amazing. I felt like I was auditing a class in nuclear physics, the level of gear knowledge was way over my head. Really impressive and a little intimidating, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    Mog Madness was for the rest of us guys, you could still participate whether you managed to acquire the gear you wanted or not, I think there’s plenty of room for all kinds of different mog competitions and I know I enjoy following them all!

  7. I just read the comments on yesterday’s post. I hope I haven’t started what will end up being a massive %^&*storm – since the livestreams are up for everyone and we’re all into transmogrification I was certain at least a few people would have seen it and word would’ve come to the judges. (Cue sound of glass shattering)

    I was a little disappointed, but we’re all entitled to an opinion and chose to see it as “Hey, they’re being mentioned on the biggest transmogrification event on the US side of WoW” – I’m sure a fair lot of listeners would’ve wanted to see what it was all about. You know how they say that there is no such thing as bad publicity! And it also means you’re on the WoW Factor judges’ radar – they might be checking in more often to see what other transmog-related goodies you have in store.

    I’m glad you held it in the format you did so we could have the judgings not too far apart, and of course make it possible for those who play on European realms to participate as well.

    • I see no reason for it to turn into a war of words or anything like that. I certainly didn’t mean for my post to be an attack on Keelhaul, but just wanted to share my own thoughts on the subject since it was brought up.

      It’s the old adage of “once it’s on the internet…”

      I’d genuinely love to talk transmog with him, and I was being honest when I said I’m confused to what the point was of bringing up Mog Madness the way it was done. I’m certainly not mad about it. If he gets mad over what I said, I’ll obviously want to know why and try to talk through it like civilized folk.

    • Ooh no, what I meant is that I noticed how that small phrase at the end of my comment (something that I might as well have left out) resulted in a whole bunch of reactions – kind of like the butterfly effect if you will.
      I wasn’t suggesting at all that your post is a verbal attack or anything of the like! I do hope no one gets further upset by this matter; I’m quite sure the phrasing was a spur of the moment thing.

      • Ah, gotcha.

        Your comment didn’t effect things at all, as that was merely an honest observation As I said before, though, I wouldn’t really worry about it.

  8. My initial reaction is to tell this anecdote: Yesterday, and the two days’ prior, I took Momokawa, my healer with a side of spam, eggs, bacon, and spam, and could tell in one dungeon there was some tension. The warrior who kept pulling took my healing something or other. Leather. Healing. Gear. Paladin told him to give it to me, or he’d be kicked. We waited. He got kicked. The event yesterday in Dire Maul at the end where the new ogre king is crowned, all loot distributed, a worgen warlock who joined our group late needed on leather healing bracers. Yup. I politely asked for them. Asked again, politely, he said “Naaah.” And left.

    The thing is: people can be petty. Not sure what the motivation is either. And the Tome is wise – how fun for the ‘rest of us.’ The simple truth is there are limits to what any single one of us can do, and have time for. Period. Unfortunately, my dander is a bit up right now, and am annoyed at the negativity. If others want to play in their sandbox, fine, but don’t send your cat over to poop in ours.

    JD–I often hear this advice, because I wear my burning sense of righteous indignation like a fuzzy sweater, and it glows off of me like cartoon sweatmarks, but don’t let the f*ckwads wear on you. You, Tome, and Effy gave us all a great chance, so much fun, and I didn’t let not making it to other rounds ever get me down – it made me think about my characters, who they are, their narratives, and I got so much out of it. I mean, damn, I got to see some top-notch players put their stuff together!

    Take heart, heroes. You all rocked this. Period.

    • I appreciate the passionate with which all are responding to it. It honestly seems to bother others more than it bothers me. I don’t say it rudely, merely as an interesting observation.

      Did you report the two loot instances? I would’ve grabbed the name of at least the Warlock (screenshot too) and sent it in.

  9. Hey there

    The reason Keelhaul brought up Mog Madness, as I understood it, was because I said something about an outfit that wouldn’t work in Modelviewer and that reminded him of “something”, which he then went on to elaborate on. The segment was in no way planned, nor has Keelhaul had any prior discussion about Mog Madness with Noelani and I, it was a thought that came to his mind at that moment.

    As pointed out, he just briefly looked over it and made a snap judgement, I tried to explain from what I had picked up about the competition, although as JD says, I didn’t hit bulls eye. I don’t recall a rule about the sets needing to be replicable in game, and that’s why I assumed they didn’t have to be, I guess this was where I went wrong.

    The irony is, that for me (and Noelani) to criticize Mog Madness would be to criticize our own project by proxy – there’s a lot more similarity between what we do at WoWRoleplayGear and Mog Madness, than between WoWRoleplayGear and WoW Factor.

    To give it another twist – what I said that made Keelhaul associate with Mog Madness was that some outfits look good in game, but they look strange and mismatched in Modelviewer, I’m sure you’ve run into this as well.
    This means that making outfits in Modelviewer can be even harder as small differences in color etc show up there, but not in game. Making good outfit is a notch more difficult for your competition than for in game assembly, when acquisition is not taken into account.

    Ps:
    Some have pointed out that we only do the US servers, which at the time is correct.

    However, Noelani and I are in fact EU players and we have around 5 EU servers in the queue, right now we are just exhausting Keel’s vast fortune on the US servers he plays on.
    We are of course unable to go to servers that are not home to English speaking players.

    • Morning Ironyca,
      Thanks so much for dropping by and taking the time to reply! I very much appreciate you doing so.

      At the end of the day, I think we’ve all got the same appreciation for transmogrification and you were very much in the ballpark in your take on Mog Madness.

      I’m glad we’re all passionate about it, I was just confused by the whole thing. I’ve said others were more bothered about it than I was but that I should still address it. I tried utmost not to offend any of you (and particularly Keel because I mentioned him by far the most) and hope I did achieve that.

  10. Well, I sure feel left out of the transmog loop — which is totally fine with me, since I’m not as passionate about it as other people are. Don’t get me wrong, I like pretty outfits as much as the next person, but I don’t have that drive to design outfit after outfit and farm old instances ad nauseum. For me, once each of my toons has a look then I’m done. Someday I might change things up, and my main has a bank full of pretty gear “just in case” I want to use it, but there are so many more things I’d rather do with my time than farm old content or troll the AH all the time.

    I had never heard of Keelhaul, Ironyca or WoW Factor before. I hadn’t realised that transmog had become such a huge thing. I think it’s crazy that there’s any controversy at all. Seriously, is one group of transmog enthusiasts saying another group is “doing it wrong”? Because that’s just hilarious. We’re doing the grown-up gamer equivalent of playing with paper dolls. Serious business, y’all.

    That said, I’m scared to listen to the WoW Factor segment just in case they rip apart my pathetic designs. I don’t think I could take the public humiliation. LOL

    Mog Madness was fun. It wasn’t perfect, and I’ve given my feedback on another post, but it was a good time. The judges ran the event as best they knew how, and I deeply appreciate all the effort that went into it. I met new people, and got to see awesome ideas I would never have come up with myself.

    From what little I’ve gathered about WoW Factor, their events sound fun too. Different format, but I’m sure everyone enjoys themselves, and that the organizers run the events as best they know how.

    So, what’s the problem? Did the Mog Madness participants “not really” make the gear sets because we didn’t farm them up in game? So… that somehow makes our outfits illigitimate? Ridiculous. It’s worse than a traditional artist denigrating digital artists for “not really” drawing.

    Don’t like the format of a contest? Don’t enter it. Feel free to state your preferences. But don’t dismiss the fun and effort of other people. Live and let live! Group hug, everyone.

    • I’m going to agree with Khizz here, I thought this event was great, very cool to see the creative designs that people could come up with, whether they used a program or not. The idea is the creativity behind the design if you ask me. Do fashion designers stitch the outfits themselves? Probably not the pros.

      My point is we’re all working off the same tools here, whether you’re the creative mind or the one that’s harvesting the field. Getting a loot drop from a boss doesn’t make that item look better than one from a model viewer. What makes a great outfit is how you put it together, not how you got it.

      I thought this contest here was fantastic. Given the rules it was very cool to see how different or similar people responded. I say well done!

      Also, like Khizz, I had never heard of WoW Factor or the people involved there. I had to laugh at the idea of elite transmoggists. Sorry, elite raiders I can understand…but elite transmoggists? /gigglesnort

      • I think the elite comment is how some people view Keelhaul and Ironyca, as I don’t think either one would refer to themself as elite (and Ironyca has already downplayed that notion in an earlier comment).

    • I would give it a listen before jumping to certain conclusions. Never once did he rip the outfits, it was more that the methods we allowed bugged him.

      WoW Factor IS a great event. Seriously, do your best to keep an eye on when they’re coming to your server because it really is worth seeing in person.

  11. Hi! After reading your entry I simply wanted to say that I hope that what the other person says doesn’t stop you all from continuing your transmog contest in the future. It sounds like everyone that participates in it has a ton of fun and has a chance to show off their artistic nature in various ways. And honestly, isn’t having fun all that matters in the end? Happy playing!

    • Thanks for the kind words ladysama. As I said in my recap post from yesterday, I consider the contest to have been incredibly successful and for that reason wouldn’t dream of holding back on it.

      In regards to the comments made towards Mog Madness, I reiterate that others seem to be bothered by them much more than I.

  12. Pingback: A World Without Copy+Paste and Other Random Tuesday Musings « Effraeti's RP

  13. I’m in the same boat as Khizzara in the fact that the only Transmog exposure outside of the game that I’ve had has been articles on Wow Insider, this contest, and some websites with transmog tools such as Icy Veins. Coming from this background and listening to the comments made, I heard a blatant elitist attitude. The male commentator basically dissed this contest because many outfits were not rendered in game. Wow…when did transmog become like hardcore raiding?! “If you are not doing it the one specific way then you aren’t doing it right.”

    I applaud your effort to be neutral JD…but these comments don’t deserve a neutral attitude. I loved how he tried to backpedal and then changed the subject at the end…it didn’t cover up his true opinion about the whole thing however, and that was where the elitist attitude shined through.

    Rendering the models in Mogit gave us the freedon to go crazy and be creative instead of being stressed out about a 5% drop rate – and I’m thankful that this was the case.

    • I agree completely, Deb.

      I refuse to apologize for my admittedly inflammatory comments on this matter, simply because no one has the right to pass off judgement on others for doing something different than how they might.

      Never at any point in my post did I mention Ironyca or Noelani. It was Keelhaul’s comments I took offense to. Unfortunately, this was my first exposure to him, so that will likely be where my opinion of him remains.

      But just realize this simple comment of his will likely reflect upon WoW Factor as a whole.

      And JD, I love that you are trying to hard to be a nice guy – but stop apologizing for yourself and everyone else!! You are fully entitled to your opinion, as is everyone here. We do not speak against Keelhaul having an opinion, but attempting to knock down moggers who do not execute it as he does.

      ~ Effy

      • Lol, I’m actually not trying to be a nice guy in this case. I’ve been honest and forthcoming the whole time. The only thing that bothered me was him laughing at the contestants. Everything else just came across as almost pointless as far as I’m concerned.

        • All I have seen down the length of these comments consists of you stating neutrality and apologizing to Ironyca for us calling Keelhaul an elitist. :)

          Bad PR is bad. Period.

          BTW, I expect to see your aristocratic Worgen outfit on my desktop ASAP. If Matty beats you to it, I will be most disappointed. ;)

          ~ Effy

          • Guess I never felt that was the message I was conveying. I did come to her defense when folks grouped her in elitist but that was only because she denied it elsewhere. I really am not trying to be neutral or anything like that. My position is exactly how I feel. Don’t get me wrong, I understand how people feel, and I feel just as strongly about Mog Madness (and all those involved). I just think his “bashing” of it fell horribly flat in effort and execution.

            I personally don’t think it reflects on WoW Factor, directly because of Ironyca and her remarks in the same segment. We’ve joked about me being Simon Cowell, but use American Idol as an example. A lot of people didn’t like the guy but they still enjoyed the show.

            You might be waiting a few days, I’m not going to lie. I won’t get to it after work tonight, and at least part of tomorrow morning is a complete right off. Friday too, lol.

          • Believe me, I understand commitments, I have been horribly negligent of my blog and my blogging friends. But just remember, you asked me be more specific! :)

            ~ Effy

          • Oh, and I accepted. I even have ideas brewing. It’s just a matter of sitting down and schooling you.

  14. Wow! I wish someone had alerted me to this post, I would have responded sooner! I just happened to do a Google search on the wow factor and a few pages in this popped up. I was like, “Ooo, I wonder what they’re saying about the show?” – DOH

    OK, so let me diffuse the package of explosives this thread seems to be hoping goes off. Sorry folks, no fireworks! And for the TLDR audience, let me sum it up: TROLL, GRRR, RANT, OOPS, I’M SORRY MOG MADNESS. :)

    I should probably go back and listen to what I said during the show, but I’m pretty sure I recall the gist of what came out of my mouth. And the reason it fell flat on its face and I didn’t finish the thought was because I knew I was in the wrong to even bring it up.

    What boiled over during the show was an interaction I’d had a few days earlier in trade chat where as I was announcing the upcoming WoW Factor show, someone was spouting off on me about the Simon Cowell of Azeroth. To be quite frank, I thought they were referring to me. I mean I modeled The WoW Factor and much of the way I promote it and bankroll it with Cowell and the X-Factor in mind, so I bit on the troll’s trolling and that’s when Mog Madness got mentioned.

    I recognized the name because I’d seen it pop up in Cymre’s feed, as I follow her on Twitter, but I hadn’t checked in on it since I first saw it announced. So I went over to the site to check out why this troll felt what the real Simon Cowell of Azeroth and Mog Madness were doing was so much better than what we were doing. Only natural to want to look further into it, I suppose.

    Anyway, long story short, I came away thinking the two contests were completely different. But in my mind I was also burying that trade troll because I really didn’t appreciate the bashing I got (it happens a lot when you announce these shows in trade, but this was particularly rough! I know, grow thicker skin, right?)

    Anyway, so somebody said something in the livestream feed that triggered my interaction that had happened in trade and a bit of my frustration spilled over into the commentary. That’s why it probably sounds like a few moments of passionate ranting and then I trail off. I trailed off because my spider sense started to tingle, and I knew I was out of line because my beef wasn’t with Mog Madness or the format, it was with the troll that got under my skin.

    Ironyca was right to say what she did, and if you notice, I completely back off because I knew I’d said the wrong thing in the wrong setting for the wrong reason.

    I’d forgotten about it though, since nobody said anything to me after the show. So I’m really glad I happened upon this. So a couple of things…

    1) I did notice Mara posting her “Monday Mog Madness” threads on the DEA forums and wondered if that was the right terminology to use, given I was aware a Mog Madness existed. I’ll have her change up how she titles her little challenges, because Mog Madness really should be its own entity and not mixed up with friendly challenges she’s doing on the forums.

    2) Next time I’m on the livestream I’ll set the record straight on this and give y’all the best plug I can. But you’ve got to help me, is there going to be another one? Give me something to say more than just “there was this contest that is now over”. ;)

    3) Anytime y’all want my take on things, sheesh please let me know! I’m juggling family life and my own business in addition to the WoW Factor, Disenchanting Azeroth weapon analysis articles, and catering to all of these different audiences that follow the things that I do so I can’t be everywhere. I need the help of the community to lay an ear or a word to things like this. Help keep me in the loop! My email is keelhaul@deazeroth.com, my Skype is deazeroth and my Twitter handle is @deazeroth. I’m always happy to get into a conversation about transmogrification, especially when it’s with fans of it that love it as much as I do.

    4) I’m not elite. If I was, clearly I wouldn’t have let a troll get under my skin. If y’all have seen any of our shows, you’re aware how my tone and demeanor can change on a dime when it comes to players trolling what we do. And it only happens because I’m so passionate about it. Love what you do, bring passion to what you do, and people will believe in you. That’s clearly the basis of what’s also happening here with Mog Madness and I for one would like to learn more about it and what’s in store for it.

    We can only do one realm at a time. I was sincerely hoping our format would be something that would go viral and multiple realms would start their own shows, but it’s kindof backfired and everyone’s asking us to come to them. That’s our achilles heel and what I feel is likely the strength of the format of Mog Madness. Anyone, anywhere can participate in your event. For ours, they have to wait or watch. We’re actually at a disadvantage, which is why we have to be so passionate about what we do, we’re actually underdogs having to go one realm at a time. So when I get trolled, I’ve been taking it personally lately. It’s something I need to work on, and I certainly didn’t mean to take it out indirectly on your endeavors here. If I really had something bad to say about Mog Madness, I would have said it. Lord knows my problem is sometimes I say too much. ;)

    Don’t be a stranger, it’s just me. :)

    -Keel

    • Thanks so much for responding Keel. As many people aren’t going to see this unless they go hunting for it, I’m going to repost this so that it gets the proper viewing. I’ll also respond in kind in that post as well.

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